032: A Sherpa Named Zoi with Eric Hodgdon

032: A Sherpa Named Zoi with Eric Hodgdon

After losing his 15-year-old daughter to suicide, Eric Hodgdon found himself screaming, “Oh my god, Zoi, I’m so sorry. I cannot believe that I did not help you in some way.” Suddenly, it felt as if Zoi was sitting next to him. She said, “Dad, cut it out. I’m okay.” He froze, said, “Oh, my god. She’s right. She is okay now.”

You would never know that Eric has walked through a massive, devastating life experience – or that it was this trauma that set him on a path to where he is and what he does today. He has a joy for life, and a very kind and loving spirit. As a coach, author, and speaker, Eric has trained thousands of people to navigate the worst setbacks that can happen to us all.

In today’s episode, Eric shares his journey of grief and how he found a way to get back up after losing his daughter Zoi, what he learned from this traumatic experience, and how he teaches others that no one needs to walk alone.

Overcomer Playlist Recommendation 

Pearls of Wisdom

  • Survival is not the end game. It’s part of the process, but not where you stop.
  • How it’s okay to live your life and honor your loved one at the same time.
  • Always remember to own what’s going on, and not let it own you.

Tweetables

“We just can't never give up, I mean, that's falling down seven times, and getting back up eight.” - Eric Hodgdon Click To Tweet “You're only as strong as what you've been through in life, and we all are just innately wired to be strong. We just have to access it and find ways to access it.” - Eric Hodgdon Click To Tweet “When you're taking your last breath, is it a deep breath of accomplishment that I did everything that I possibly could while I was here? Or is it a very short breath of regret?” - Eric Hodgdon Click To Tweet “It’s okay. We fall off the trail. Sometimes you gotta get back on, and the path keeps going.” - Eric Hodgdon Click To Tweet

 

Resources

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Connect with Arwen Becker

Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

 

Arwen Becker: In January of 2017, I began training with a master storyteller coach, who was really helping me work on my basics as it relates to being on stage and being able to captivate an audience through storytelling. And today's guest was part of that group. And what I admired so much about him was his joy for life and just as a really very kind and loving spirit. And what's so interesting is you would not have known that he had walked through a massive, and what you wouldn't have known was that he had in real recent times, walked through a devastating life experience, one that a lot of people really struggle to move past. And yet, it was this experience that set him on a path that led him to where he is today and what it is that he does.

 

And so, I'm so excited that we get the opportunity to hear from him because I know that you're going to truly be blessed by what it is that he has to say. After losing his 15-year-old daughter Zoi to suicide in early 2014, Eric Hodgdon, found a way to get back up. And through his journey of grief, he's sharing the lessons he learned, so that no one has to walk that journey alone. As a coach, an author, and a speaker, Eric has trained thousands of people who simply wanted to know how to navigate the worst setbacks, and those can happen to us all.

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

Arwen Becker: Eric, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Arwen, thank you so much as well. I am so honored to share Zoi with you and your listeners. This is just incredible. So, thank you.

 

Arwen Becker: No, absolutely, my pleasure. So, before we get started today, why don't you tell us the song that you brought to add our overcomer playlist? And why did you pick it?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Awesome. There's a song that I've listened to probably for the last 30 to 40 years. I'm dating myself, but it's a song from Fleetwood Mac, Don't Stop. It is applied in so many aspects of my life. And I know that when I am struggling, this is a song that I can turn to, and I'm right back in the game.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah, I love that song, too. It's probably one of those that you need to turn up to, right?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Yeah, absolutely. It comes on. And I think the addition that that's from their 1997 reunion tour or reunion concert is probably the strongest rendition of that song that I absolutely just love and will play over and over again.

 

Arwen Becker: Awesome. Love that. Well, why don't you take us back? As I said at the top of the show, when I met you, I would have never guessed that you had gone through and were still working through a very, very significant loss, yet this has been the launching point of your life and your life's work. And why don't you take us back to the depths of it in 2014? What happened?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Well, thank you. In early 2014, I was struggling to fight for custody of Zoi. We were struggling to try to figure out and navigate the mysterious world of adolescent psychiatric hospitals for her. And on January 25th, I had to say goodbye to my hero, my 15-year-old daughter Zoi. Earlier that evening, I said goodnight to her, she was just going to go up to bed. And I went back to my computer to do some work. And I went upstairs to say goodnight to her a little while later. And when I opened her bedroom door, I found her. I don't remember much after that for the next few hours. I do remember driving home in my sister's car from the hospital that night. And just saying to her, I don't know how or if I'm going to survive this. Five days later, over 900 people came to Zoi's wake. And that number still blows me, 900.

 

Arwen Becker: Unbelievable.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Unbelievable. And shortly after that, I received so many handwritten letters from her friends and teachers and staff members and other folks that just knew Zoi, and the message was always the same, that your daughter touched me in ways that I can't explain, but we'll always remember. And in some of those handwritten letters, some of our friends shared with me that it was Zoi that came up to them when they were going into an adolescent psychiatric unit, because Zoi just could understand what they were dealing with. She had this innate sense to be able to say, that person over there is struggling, and I want to help them.

 

And so, she would go up to them and say, “Hey, my name is Zoi. Look, it's not going to be that bad here. Kids are cool, staff is alright. And you know what, when the staff isn't looking, you can draw penises on the wall.” And when I heard that, I gained so much clarity, not so much about what she was drawing on the walls, but I drew clarity on who Zoi was as a person. And it was just so powerful to see how she just stepped away from herself and helped other people. And as time carried on, I did try to work through my survival, it wasn't easy. There were some days when I felt like I wasn't going to make it, that could have been every hour, I’d be trying to make it from minute to minute or hour to hour.

 

And eventually, I would find ways to reconnect or connect with her friends, and that became the basis of my fight, to not only pick up Zoi's torch and carry and continue on the work that she was doing and helping others get up, but to fight for my family and all of her friends to find our better days, and they're out there.

 

Arwen Becker: Because you could– I mean, you could have quit, you could have given up on that, you could have just thrown in the towel.

 

And that's the journey that I think that a lot of folks are looking at this abyss of grief and wondering. I don't know if I want to go down in there, because if I go down there, I don't know what's next, I don't know how to illuminate my path through this fog, how to clear the fog, how to illuminate my path, how to find my strength, when I don't think I have any. And that's the power of working through and walking a grief journey. That is not in anybody else's timeline, it's not on anybody else's agenda, it's yours and your pace. And if you can stay focused in that pace or your pace, and know that you're not alone, and you've got it, there's guides out there to help you who have done this journey before, they can walk with you, not for you. And that's where you can really find those moments of, my gosh, like, I'm really struggling here, there's somebody else out there that's done this. And so, if they can do it, maybe I can, too.

 

Arwen Becker: Do you think a lot of people, through the study that you've done, do you think a lot of people compare their grief? Like, well, I shouldn't feel so bad about this, because look what they've been through that, doing this comparative thing, do you see that happening? And how destructive is that?

 

Eric Hodgdon: They do, I do very much see that. And where I think people see themselves, it's like, well, they're on the other side of their major part of grief. And I don't know how I'm going to get there. And so, they say they take themselves out of the game right away, and they remain stuck in a survival mode for years, sometimes decades. And one of my clients, I was coaching her a few months ago, and her name is Landon and it’s like, it's been 30 years since my husband died, and I feel like I'm still on day one.

 

And so, we did a quick exercise where I asked her, well, let's imagine if the situation was reversed. If your husband was still here, and you had died, would you want him to be sad and crying every single day? And she’s immediately, no, no way. Absolutely not. I want him to live and be happy, and she kind of stops herself in the middle of the conversation. She says, Oh, my god, I can't believe how much time has gone by, and as she put it, how many boxes of tissues I've gone through when I could have been carrying on with my life and honoring him. And she had in certain ways, but just the thought of being stuck for her became comfortable.

 

Arwen Becker: Right. And just the amount of moments that were lost along the way because of still being stuck in that grief, but you said everybody goes through it on their own timeline, and they go through this process, but they're still, I would have to imagine, you'd look at and go, 30 years to still be really distraught about it, some form of recovery still has not occurred, right? And you have, through what your daughter had– through this process of losing your daughter, but then also looking back at the woman that she was becoming for other people and being able to honor that, you have now stepped into a place where you're now sitting with a lot of people in their own moments of grief, and being able to help them recognize and have the tools that you yourself have had learned through study and training and fighting to have this life that you believe your daughter would want you to have. Just like the woman talking about her husband, what kind of life would he want her to have? And so, that's what you now, that's the legacy of your daughter now imparting into you, allowing you to impart into other people that not all is lost, even through such significant loss, right?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Yeah. Oh, there are so many gifts along this journey. And I want to say that it's like, Oh, guess what, I get to take a grief journey. Nobody thinks that, but I think at the very starting point, in Greek, Zoi's name, Zoi means life. And I know that Zoi would be so upset with me if she knew that I was letting all of those good memories from her life stop me from living mine. And so, when I looked at her friends, and they were saying, “What do I do with this?” Okay, first of all, nobody's going to join her. Okay, we're clear, right. And next, we're going to find a way so that you can get up in the morning, and you can get dressed and you can go to school, and you can come home, you can work on your hobby, or the thing that brings you joy, and then go to sleep. And the next day, repeat that over and over again, until that becomes the norm despite how you're feeling, because that is how you survive, it is tying in.

 

And if there's no meaning in your life after you lose somebody, you lose purpose, like I thought Zoi was my purpose. So, tying in the meaning with some form of movement, that that could be moving a pen, that could be moving your body, that could be moving from your bed to the couch. Sometimes that's all you can do, and that's okay. And so, yes, you have to find those ways that just give you what you need in the moment.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah. And you've used the term, and I don't know if it's a term that you created, or if it's a term that you've adapted a lot in a lot of your coaching, but it's get up eight, or what is it again?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Actually, yeah, that goes, yes, it's fall down seven times, get up eight. It's an old Japanese proverb. And I just felt like that was Zoi's force, that was her energy, that was always her thing. Zoi had to fight back a few times on her own mental health from time to time, but I always saw the fight in her. And I know ultimately, that this was a decision that she made that just took her out, unfortunately. And I wish she was here, but I just so honor the fight that she was in and knowing that she was giving it her all and that's all we can ask of anybody in any fight, in any journey, in any struggle, is just do your best, and there's no one right way to do something.

 

I would say a lot of people feel like it's an on or off switch. And so, they sometimes impart that. Well, why aren’t you over this by now? It's been two months. And I think that I chuckled only because I remember standing in Zoi’s resting place a couple years after she passed, and somebody was there visiting another site a few spots down. And I don't know who this person was, but she stopped, she says, “I'm sorry for your loss as well. Who is this?” I said, “Unfortunately, it’s my daughter.” “Oh, I'm so sorry. How did this happen?” I said, “Well, unfortunately, she took her life.” “Oh, well, you're young enough, you can have more kids.”

 

Arwen Becker: Oh God.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Right. And so, I stopped her, said, I had gotten to a place of resolution where I actually imagined Zoi standing there in front of me and looking at me, like, did she just say that? I did not let it bring me to my knees, because that was just not the energy that I wanted to take on, it wasn't mine to begin with. And so, I just chose to focus on how I could continue on in my journey and know that there are some folks that just can't, they can't meet me where I am which is–

 

Arwen Becker: Or they just say things, I mean, people say things out of a moment of like, they don't know what to say, so the very wrong thing comes out. I have to imagine that if that person had a moment to think through what they were going to say, they wouldn't have said that.

 

Eric Hodgdon: I agree, and people will respond differently. Here's my take on this is that I feel as though when there is something that happens that affects you emotionally, your defaults come into play, and your defense mechanisms are just automatically, they go up. And when they go up, you are trying to find a way, so that you don't feel the same level of pain that the other person is feeling. And so, this is your brain’s way of protecting itself and saying to others, can we just be over this by now, because I don't really like feeling this way? And that's coming out, actually, they're verbalizing it in whatever manner they are.

 

Arwen Becker: However, it triggers them. Yeah, interesting.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Yeah, exactly. And so, they don't have capacity at that point, necessarily to understand what somebody is actually feeling, but when they take their own journey of loss, it might make complete sense. And so, it's just everybody at some point, it’s just an element of the human condition that we're going to deal with loss in some form. And loss is loss, it doesn't matter if you lose a relationship, it doesn't matter if you lose a job, it doesn't matter if you lose your 401(k). Loss is loss, and you respond the way that your defaults have been developed over the years.

 

Arwen Becker: That was something I had read in a book called A Grace Disguised, I don't know if you've ever heard of that one, but I read it when we were preparing for my oldest son, my adoptive son for the passing of his mother.

 

So, I adopted him after she passed away, but he was 12 at the time. So, preparing for that, reading this book, the author had a car accident, severe car accident. They had, I think, four kids. He lost his wife, his mother, and his daughter in one moment. And yet, he writes this book, and he says, but you know what, I've never gone through, I don't know what it's like to lose a spouse to cancer, I've never gone through a divorce, I never got fired from a job. So, that's a different type of loss I have never experienced, but yet, I know what it's like to go through this, but if we get into this comparison mode of whose loss is worse, that's not serving anybody, because loss is loss, like you said.

 

Eric Hodgdon: You’re right. Yeah, and one of the things that has come to me over the years is that grief and loss, grief is like a fingerprint. There's a lot of similarities, but each experience is unique to us, but that's what also makes it relatable to folks that have gone through the journey already. I don't know what it's like to lose a parent, I know what it's like to lose a pet, I know what it's like to lose a child, I know what it's like to lose a grandparent. And in my experience, even when I do lose my parents isn't going to be like somebody else's. However, the similarities in how I feel, because we're all pretty much wired the same, there's going to be just an emotional piece, there's going to be have to be that survival mode that you're going to have to go through or stay there, and most people stay there, but then you move out of the survival mode, and you start to get to a place where you can get back up. And you have some better days, but you're still trying to figure things out. And then eventually, when you start to come out of the fog fully, you transition to living beyond the loss, rediscovering your purpose, reemerging into life.

 

And I think that that's where the challenge is, is that the resources that are out there today, they're focused on survival being the end game, it's not. Yes, we have to do that, it's necessary, but there has to be a handoff point from Okay, you're through survival point, now what? And that's where I think that a lot is lost on some of the folks that are out there that are struggling to figure out what's next.

 

Eric Hodgdon: What do I do with this? What do I get?

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah. Can I ask you about, I have to imagine as a parent, that there was guilt that came into play after her loss, losing a child to suicide, what was it like for you to have to work through that? Because I mean, ultimately, that was her choice to make, but I have to imagine there was a lot of that feeling, and how did you work through that as a parent?

 

Eric Hodgdon: That's a fantastic question. And yes, that is a very big question that I get from my coaching students and my students of just what do I do with his guilt? And for about 18 months after Zoi died, I had started to tell myself a story, and this is really important. The story that we tell ourselves is key with how we process guilt, but the story I was telling myself was that I should have been a better dad for you, I should have seen this coming. What kind of dad lets his daughter die? And I could obviously go back and hindsight is always 2020 here, that only amplifies the grief and the guilt 10x.

 

And so, what pattern I got stuck into was that I was getting off the train, I was working in Boston at the time, and I would take the commuter rail home to the town I lived in in Norwood, and I would get off the train, get in my car. It’s a two-mile drive from the train station to my house. And inevitably, by mile one, I would start crying and I would start talking out loud, Oh, my god, Zoi, you should still be here. I should have been a bad dad for you. I'm so, so sorry. I'm so sorry. And that was every day, and it was just this pattern almost, I got stuck in this habitual pattern of repeating this. And so that became my truth.

 

And then, I remember one day, I left work early because I was just struggling to make it through the day, and I cried on the entire way home on the commuter rail. And the second I got in my car, I put my head in my hands and just sobbed for about 10 minutes, and it felt like an hour. My windows were fogging up, and I just went 10x on screaming, I didn't care if anybody heard me. Oh, my god, Zoi, I'm so sorry. I cannot believe that I did not help you in some way. And I started, I was able to drive, I don't know how, because I could barely see, my eyes were swollen. And it was as if Zoi was sitting in the seat next to me, and I heard her voice say, “Dad, cut it out. I'm okay.” And I froze. And I didn't say a word until I got home and I pulled into my driveway and I sat there for a second. I'm like, oh, my god, she's right. She is okay now. I did everything I possibly could for Zoi while she was here. I fought for her to make sure that she had the right care. I went to see her when she was in the hospital. I stayed with her at night when she was sick and she was struggling and she was crying. I did everything I could with the knowledge that I had, I couldn't have done any better, I don't have a crystal ball for the future, I did not know this was going to happen. And so, all I could do is just fall back on what I did do and have to accept and come to some sort of resolution that that was the best that could have happened for Zoi.

 

And so, I started to work through that. And I'd have to remind myself, and this is where the guilt started to shift away from guilt to more of, Okay, this isn't serving me, it's not serving her friends and the people that need to hear about Zoi's story, so that they can get back up. And so, I started to tell myself, and then I started to share this story, this thing what I just shared with you, because it's important, we can begin to look at our own guilt and be like, well, what's the truth here? What's the story I'm telling myself?

 

Arwen Becker: And how is it serving you?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Exactly. How is it serving you right now? Are you making a decision to heal? Are you making a decision to continue to hurt? Because you have the access to both of those decisions, and they're easy to make, and they both require work, so why not make the decision to heal?

 

Arwen Becker: So, so good. It's such an emotional story. I just thank you so much, because I personally haven't gone through that kind of loss. And yet, I have to imagine, there are so many parents that are facing the same reality, trying to get to that moment where they can have a feeling of peace inside, that they were not the cause, the reason, that what they did was enough. And I just thank you so much for sharing that. I know for you, I have your book here, obviously, if you're just listening to this podcast, you can't see it, but Eric's book, A Sherpa Named Zoi: How to Walk Through Grief, and Live with Intention. And I had told you, when I was going through a major crisis a couple years ago, this was the book that really helped me during that time, even though I was not going through a physical loss of an individual, I was going through a major loss of my own life. And that has become your story. Your story is being able to reach into people's lives who are in this place of grief and loss and be able to provide them hope that tomorrow will be better, but there's things that need to be done along the way to get through it. Right?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Right. Absolutely. We just can't never give up, I mean, that's falling down seven times, and getting back up eight. I mean, you're only as strong as what you've been through in life, and we all are just innately wired to be strong. We just have to access it and find ways to access it.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah.

 

Eric Hodgdon: It's not entirely easy either to do that.

 

Arwen Becker: No, nobody said that this was an easy process. That's for sure.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Right, that’s true.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah, but it is, just like you said, sometimes it's just putting your feet on the floor, just moving from one space to the next. It's just being willing to move a little bit and make a little bit of progress and not focus, doing this future tripping of looking, what is it going to be like a year and a half down the road? And what if this, and playing that game, because that's just devastating, but if we can just focus on today in the moment, and go easy on ourselves and have some grace, and use the tools that I know that you provide for your coaching clients that your book provides as well, it's just a really, really powerful piece. And I know that at the end of the show, you're going to provide some of those resources for all of us as well.

 

So, as we kind of get to wrapping up, there are so many pieces that I know you've taken out of this loss of such a beautiful young lady, and I love it, because there's a picture on the back of the book of the two of you, which is just so precious.

 

Eric Hodgdon: My favorite drawing of Zoi, yeah.

 

Arwen Becker: So precious. But what would you say for our listeners are really the three biggest things that you've taken away from this experience?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Well, first of all, one of the biggest takeaways that I know of is that survival is not the end game, it can't be. It's a part of the process, but it's not where you stop. And I think if you have the ability to move past survival mode and figure out ways to get back up consistently, then it does lead into those better days, and living beyond the loss truly, and honoring your loved one. It's okay to actually live your life and honor your loved one at the same time. And I think another big takeaway is that it's okay to own what's going on, and not let it own you, because you are the one that is walking in your own shoes, no one's walking for you, and no one can. And I think the final one is that in the end, when you're taking your last breath, is it a deep breath of accomplishment that I did everything that I possibly could while I was here? Or is it a very short breath of regret?

 

And so, those are really the three things that I've taken away from this journey, that I keep them posted at my house, I remind myself of them often, and sometimes I do forget, and I just have to, it's okay, we fall off the trail, sometimes you gotta get back on the trail, and the path keeps going.

 

Arwen Becker: Life isn't in a straight line.

 

Eric Hodgdon: No. It kind of was it was, but–

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah, I think we all do. Oh, my gosh, just, I'm so honored for you to share your heart and your journey and her story and your story as they're all intertwined, and our lives are, I mean, your life and your journey has affected mine. And it's been such a huge benefit for me and other people.

 

Eric Hodgdon: I'm so glad to hear that.

 

Arwen Becker: Oh, I'm so grateful. So, now, we're down to our last three questions of rapid fire. So, here we go. What is the best piece of financial wisdom that you've been given?

 

Eric Hodgdon: It has been to get educated. A lot of people, me included, I may have jumped into some things financially that I wasn't prepared for.

 

Arwen Becker: Me too.

 

Eric Hodgdon: Right. And so, the biggest lesson, it's a life lesson as well, I kind of get educated before I make some decisions, but you’re never going to have 100% of what you need, you just need to move on what you do have, but getting educated is really key to help you move forward. And you figure out the rest along the way.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah, that's great advice, really good advice. What is a favorite book and why? And certainly, your book, and all the details will be in the show notes as well. And I'd love to know how we can get a hold of your book, but what's the favorite book that you have?

 

Eric Hodgdon: Well, I did read your book recently, and I absolutely loved it. So, thank you so much for putting that together, that's very helpful. I'm going to give a copy to all my friends, all my single moms, all my married moms, just such a fantastic resource.

 

Arwen Becker: Thank you.

 

Eric Hodgdon: But I think my favorite book is this Five-Minute Journal, and I'll tell you why. It's because we get to write our gratitude in this journal versus it being written for us. So, we get to write our own story. And how powerful is that? When you're struggling to be able to pull up a page and look at the gratitude that you have for what is currently in your life and know that you can still be grateful for what was as well. And when I filled out my journal, probably every day for the six months of the journal, Zoi was at the top of list for gratitude. I am so grateful that I got to be her dad, but that allowed me once I started to express the gratitude, to just flourish and be okay for me to work through this.

 

Arwen Becker: Beautiful. And what is a favorite quote of yours?

 

Eric Hodgdon: I'm going to go back to this Japanese proverb, to fall down seven times, you get back up eight. It just hits me, and it's been something that I can always refer back to, there's some power with that, that no matter what, if you get knocked down, you just always have to get back up that one more time. And there's a reason for that, there's a benefit to that to you to do that.

 

Arwen Becker: So good. How can we all get a hold of you? I know we're going to have a lot of details in the show notes, but tell us all about the wonderful things about you.

 

Eric Hodgdon: I appreciate that one. Yeah, so I do have a website. It's EricHodgdon.com, it’s E-R-I-C H-O-D-G-D-O-N.com. I'm on Instagram @ericbhodgdon. I'm about to launch an online course called Surviving the Loss. And so, I would like to make a special offer to your guests here to join me on a webinar on March 23rd where we're going to talk about the five survival not being the freedom from your grief. And we're going to tackle the five myths that keep you stuck for years and what to do about that, but especially, one of the myths is that your finances will take care of themselves, and I think you can relate to that one, Arwen. Right?

 

Arwen Becker: Yep.

 

Eric Hodgdon: And so, I'm only making this webinar available to your audience. And so, I think that if they are struggling with any type of loss right now, this webinar is going to help them get connected to what they can do about that, especially the myths that they tell themselves. Finally,my book is available on Amazon, in both Kindle format and paperback.

 

Arwen Becker: Yeah, and I want to reiterate the book, and I know that the online course as well will serve in the same way is that what you have learned throughout this process of grief and moving through it, and then actively working to be able to help turn around and be that helping hand to other people, I'm telling you, anybody who hears me, you will get tremendous benefit out of this. If this isn't the loss of a family member, again, it could be a loss of what you thought was going to be, and what COVID, 2020 took away from a lot of us.

 

And loss just comes in all different forms, but again, it's not about comparing to one another, it's about going, this is what I'm feeling right now, and how do I actively help move myself through this? What are the tools that I need? Because just like Eric said, it's about getting educated, whether that's about finances, whether that's about loss, whether that's about parenting, we have to do the work, we have to put the work in, to be able to get what it is that we want. So, please take advantage of these resources. I know that they are going to tremendously bless you. And you have blessed me, my friend.

 

Eric Hodgdon: You as well, Arwen. Thank you again so much. And I'm so grateful for you. And anybody that is out there that is struggling, you're not alone. You're not alone, and Arwen is just a fantastic resource on so many levels and what she's providing with this podcast, and so thank you for making that available. You're helping so many people as well, Arwen, so thank you so much.

 

Arwen Becker: It means the world to me. Well, I thank you. My friends, thank you so much for the time and coming on, and we will look forward to seeing you soon.

 

Eric Hodgdon: You too. Thank you, Arwen.

[END]

 

 

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